marx's reversal of the dialectic

topic posted Wed, September 27, 2006 - 3:31 AM by 
'It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousnes." -Marx

A penny for your thoughts?

I'm also thinking in line of the substructure and the superstructure that he wrote about.
  • Re: marx's reversal of the dialectic

    Wed, September 27, 2006 - 4:04 AM
    This is like asking, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

    If I use the language of computers -- I will get some flack for this -- our brain is like the hardware, that is, genetically constructed, and our consciouness is part of the software. We learn as we go along from our environment -- "our social being". What determines what we are is the interplay between the software and the hardware. Example, should our hardware be damaged -- as in an autistic child -- what we are will be highly determined by that factor. Example, if we are born into a poor family, with an environment that gives us few stimuli to our brain, that also will play a crucial role in determining who we are.
    • Re: marx's reversal of the dialectic

      Wed, September 27, 2006 - 9:18 AM
      Marx introduced an important corrective into German philosophy, and re-oriented the task of emancipation to the socio-political milieu. The philosophical analysis of freedom had been up in the clouds for a generation, since Kant's essay "What is Enlightenment?". Marx talked about freedom as fundamentally grounded in actual history, instead of being interwoven with complex metaphysical and epistemological speculations. I think this was an important contribution, but I see no reason to accept a totalizing position on either end of the spectrum.

      I think clearly both factors affect each other. There's a clear reciprocal relationship between our neurological development and our experience, for example. Take a simple case - we know on the basis of empirical research that during development, the growth of dendrites in the brain is stimulated by touch provided by caregivers. We also know that neural development is quite plastic, and the development of our brains depends very much on our situation and context. Those are clear examples in which our "social being", as it were, determines our mental being.

      I hope that the degree to which our social being delimits or constrains our consciousness is obvious to any educated member of our culture, at this point. I think Marx has clearly won that battle.
      • Re: marx's reversal of the dialectic

        Wed, September 27, 2006 - 9:56 PM
        Yes indeed Marx talked about freedom as "fundamentally grounded in history". In practical terms it meant undersstanding the vector of history determined by the material and social situation of the time and obediently fulfilling your role. You'd become free if you jon the ruling party. Marx's social determination of consciousness applies only to social consciousness - to humans as social beings. Social being - another Marxist reduction. The discussions of freedom as a sort of mystery present in the work of Kant - have a broader and more fundamental view of man in mind. Kant in fact opens the way to existential analysis of human condition - which has had trouble developing because of the huge distractions caused by Marxism in the last 150 years.
        • Re: marx's reversal of the dialectic

          Wed, September 27, 2006 - 11:11 PM
          I wouldn't precisely disagree with your characterization, Thomas. But I would remind you that prior to Marx, history was viewed in Europe as a "drama of princes and kings". If one takes the role of philosophy as a tool of emancipation seriously, it's hard for me to see how we could do without Marx's re-orientation to the here-and-now.
      • Re: marx's reversal of the dialectic

        Sun, October 1, 2006 - 10:33 AM
        If I'm not mistaken, barnaby, Kant talked about the dichotomies. For the dialectic, which Marx borrowed from Hegel, a thesis produced a negation, the antithesis, which would interact with it and produce the synthesis; and the latter would become the new thesis, generate an antithesis, and thereby a new synthesis, and so on. That's why Marx's view wasn't on a totalizing position or on a polarity.

        The thing about Marx's reductions, IMO, is that his postulates about the species being and consciousness and freedom, form the linchpin of his philosophy. Without it, where existeth the grounds for him to work out his theories? Just as scientific law starts off with its own set of unique postulates.
        • Re: marx's reversal of the dialectic

          Sun, October 1, 2006 - 3:11 PM
          Well, my intention in referring to the possible "totalizing" positions on either side of the material/spirit debate is in noting that Marx believed the nature of the dialectic is material, and not of the spirit, as Hegel thought. In that sense, I do think he does represent the far end of the spectrum regarding the relative importance of the material versus the spirit/consciousness. That seems supported by his writings, say, in The German Ideology.

          Can you explain a little more what you mean about "the species being and consciousness and freedom, form the linchpin of his philosophy"? Not sure I completely follow.

          regards~
          • Re: marx's reversal of the dialectic

            Sat, October 7, 2006 - 9:22 AM
            I rememebr being impressed by the idea of "species being" in Marx. I thought it was an original and valuable contribution. I would like to revisit this idea as it seems ot point ot more of a biological unity whcih Marx later ignored in favor of socio-economic determinants of human existence. Of course this would move us here away from the dialectic issue.

            Another of Marx's ideas I liked is the idea of "praxis".

Recent topics in "German Philosophy"

Topic Author Replies Last Post
Nietzsche's Breakdown: Insanity, or brilliance? Unsubscribed 27 April 12, 2008
Kant: Wrong for America barnaby 4 January 2, 2008
International Philosophy JollyPaddlin... 0 November 28, 2007
When Nietzsche Wept PJ 16 September 9, 2007